Transcript: Fit is NOT a Body Type (Episode 3)

The following is a transcript of Fit is NOT a Body Type with Courtney Marshall

Melissa Toler: Welcome to Hearing Our Own Voice, the anti diet weight inclusive podcast that centers Black stories and experiences. I'm Melissa Toler. And today's episode is about a topic that is very near and dear to my heart. It's a topic that I have a lot of personal experience with, and a topic that I've written quite a bit about. And that topic is fitness. 

And specifically, we're going to talk about who gets to be viewed as "fit".  I love exercise I always have and probably always will. But during my time as an amateur fitness competitor several years ago, exercise became more of a job and a means to an end versus something that I really, truly enjoyed. And that job was that I had to look fit. And after I stopped competing, I was still connecting exercise with my physical appearance. I was still doing workouts because they were "good for getting in shape", but not because I wanted to do them. Honestly, it didn't feel good, and it made me resent exercise and resist going to the gym. 

I know I'm not the only one who has connected physical movement or exercise with losing weight or getting ripped or looking lean. In our weight obsessed culture exercise is so tied to weight loss that it's difficult to untangle the two. It's one of the reasons I think many people have such fraught and dysfunctional relationships with exercise. So that's why I wanted to bring my conversation with Courtney Marshall to you today. I absolutely love Courtney's approach to fitness. She's about having fun and connecting with people and making fitness accessible to everyone. So let me tell you a little bit about her: by day Courtney is an English instructor and Associate Dean of Advising at Phillips Exeter Academy in Exeter, New Hampshire. She's been teaching exercise classes since 2015, and creates affirming fitness spaces that center the experiences of fat people. She's certified and licensed and many fitness programs including spinning Silver Sneakers, aquatic fitness and her personal favorite Zumba. And she's currently writing a book entitled "Ain't I An Athlete?" which reads racialized stereotypes of Black women's strength as integral to the development of American fitness culture. She used to be an English professor and has written a training guide which incorporates encouraging quotes from Black women's literature. And all of her classes are available for free.

I think you're really going to love this conversation. And I know you're going to learn a few new things because I surely did. So let's get into the episode. 

Welcome Courtney to the podcast. It's really great to have you here. So you are a fitness professional. I know you teach Zumba, you do aquatic fitness. So I'd love for you to share with us a little bit about your journey as a fitness instructor like how did you get into that?

Courtney Marshall: Oh, sure. Hi! Thank you so much for the welcome. Really happy to be here. I love talking about movement and having a good time and goofing off. And that's really how I started in the fitness world. I was someone who was in group fitness classes, I was in a lot of Zumba. I had started CrossFit, and done a couple of group strength classes, cardio classes that were unbranded. And I decided that I wanted to be an instructor because I was feeling in the classes that although my teachers were very kind, and they were very nice, I thought that there were places that I could improve upon. So for example, I found myself in the back giving myself my own pep talks. When I was the slowest person to come back from the run in CrossFit. Or if I couldn't get a move in Zumba, I was the one who had to figure out instead of doing two steps to the left, I could do one step to the left. So I found that I was doing a lot of my own modifications. I was really encouraging the people around me to find their own ways to move. And so I said, "Oh, I think this will be fun!". So just to learn more about how the body works more about how these workouts work. And so that's what led me to getting certified through APA as group exercise instructor. I always loved Zumba. So I wound up getting a whole bunch of Zumba licenses. And then it just really went from there. I just was just interested in different kinds of exercise classes like what is it about, like group exercise classes with choreographed music versus something a spinning like when you're on a bike, so you're not really moving, but you are moving. So I just was so fascinated by all the different ways that people come together in groups to exercise that I just started amassing lots of different certifications and licenses. And today, I'm still absolutely just, I'm so in love with groups, and just figured out how group dynamics work. And so yeah, that's what that's what got me into it. So I've been teaching coming up on five years of teaching Zumba and probably the same amount of time, maybe a little less, of having certifications in group exercise. I'm coming up on a few years of aquatic exercise. So I've been at it for you know, a little while. I still feel pretty young in the field, because I've also a high school teacher for most of the day, but I really enjoyed what I've been doing so far.

Melissa Toler: Awesome! So you and I've had a lot of conversations on Facebook. And I think we've even talked a couple times live about  issues with the traditional health and wellness paradigm and fitness specifically, and the fitness industry, and how it perpetuates a lot of negative and harmful messages about bodies specifically, and about who gets to be fit and what it means to look fit and all of those things. So are there things that frustrate you about the fitness industry as it is now? And if so, what would you like to see change?

Courtney Marshall: Oh, things that frustrate me, oh, one thing that we're in this moment of gyms and magazines paying more attention to Black instructors, and there's certainly been I was looking at, I think it's self magazine has a cover story about Black people in fitness. And you know, these are the black fitness professionals that you should follow. And what I found is that those people that are featured, still tend to be very thin, but to be very kind of visibly muscular. And when there is like a fat Black person there, or who's designated themselves a plus-size athlete, or coach, it's always the same people again and again. And so to me, that's frustrating. They're more, there's more than yoga, right? And I love the our plus size yoga teachers like I think they are awesome, but there are lots of other activities and other exercise modalities and have bigger bodies in them. And I would love to see those bodies highlighted as well. So that to me is frustrating about this particular moment.

Otherwise, I still am kind of working up against the the role of money in the fitness industry. I've really seen that recently because the gyms have closed, and lots of people have, their income has gone down. A lot of people have lost their jobs in gyms, I've seen people lose their Zumba studios, which is really hard. And so I just been thinking more just about the precarious nature of working in the fitness industry, and how that can be a block to the number of people who might want to become fitness instructors. So on the one hand, I like encouraging people to say like, Oh, yeah, you want to teach Zumba?  "Here, let's help you do it."

But then I'm also concerned about the things that can help sustain somebody having a career and I think for Black people like especially as we're thinking about intergenerational wealth or lack of intergenerational wealth, lack of of different types of opportunities, that makes it even harder for, say, a person in a gym to have a Black instructor.

Melissa Toler: Yes. So I'm so glad that you brought that up. Because one of the things that I have struggled with and I think I've even written a little bit about is about money and how, for the reasons that you stated, there can be, and I know I felt this when I was a health and wellness coach, there can be a desire that's brought on by the factors that you just mentioned, there's a desire or people feel a need to continue to perpetuate the traditional body types and the traditional messages in in fitness and health and wellness. So it can be difficult to go against the usual narrative. It can be difficult to go countercultural because that's often not as lucrative. You know what I mean? Where, if you're trying if you're someone who believes in weight inclusive wellness as a coach, as a dietitian, as an instructor, you can potentially face  a lot of resistance from folks because you're offering something that is not the usual messages around exercise and weight loss and all of those things. So I think that's an important factor to talk about.

Courtney Marshall: Yes, I agree. And I really felt that when I started to get into aquatic exercise, because  I had to kind of grapple with the accessibility of pools and who has access to this type of exercise, as gyms have closed and public pools have closed. People who rely on water to get their exercise have been left out, right, so we're talking a lot about, oh, well, the gyms are open, and you can go back and you can lift weights, but there's a whole bunch of people who are still at home. So with aquatics and also with chair based exercises, which I got certified in chair one fitness this year, I'd seen a video last year and I said, Oh, everybody looks like they're having so much fun. And and I like that people are smiling and singing along and dancing in their chairs. And what I've found is thatfor those people, like the people who come to my aquatics classes, or the people when I've subbed a seated Zumba classes, they're not they're looking for weight loss. I mean, you might get an occasional calm, occasional comment about, oh, I used to weigh this, I used to weigh that. But for them, they consistently say they come because it doesn't hurt, the movement that they're doing. That's why I love aquatic exercise, because you get in that water and your knees don't hurt anymore, and you can have a good time and feel successful. But they are looking for that social component of the class. It's not so much about who can lift more weights than who or who's faster than then somebody else, it's just, again, this goes back to my love of the group, if there's a different dynamic going on. And it's not even that "you versus you" type of mentality, is it something different that in all the trainings and things that I've gotten,  I haven't yet figured out what that is, I think it's something about the group. And it's something about motivation, but it's not exactly motivation. I don't know what it is. But yeah, and so I think that becomes a very difficult idea to sell. Because you're at, you're not competing it because it's not like a relay team, or "Oh, let's get together and let's be a team and run a marathon together" or something like that. It really is about, Okay, today, we choose to come together for 45 minutes and just be in community with each other. And then we go on about our day, but we look forward to this. And then we come back to each other again and again. And that's not something that's sellable. And you can't put that on a T-shirt, or I guess a tank top or little booty shorts.

Melissa Toler: No I you know, it's fascinating that you're bringing this up because it may be sellable. But I think though we're trained to, to not see that as a reason to come to exercise. Know what I mean? 

Courtney Marshall: Yeah. So those people for whom that's their motivation... This is what I think it is: All right, because those people are either not seen as potential customers, right, they're not seen as the people that I really want to work with in this group. Right? Those are the folks I want to be with. But also there's a way that this I think this works true for people in bigger bodies as well. They're not seen as being serious, right, you have to be serious about your exercise. And I think the way I look at it as play and as joyful and as movement and as something that I don't think has to be commodified all the time. I think that also makes it difficult for people to wrap their minds around.

Melissa Toler: Hmm, that it's just play and fun. Yeah, I was gonna ask you what you How would you describe your approach to health and fitness and based on what I know about you from following you, you are full of fun. It sounds like your classes are chock full of fun. I love the way they, they you use memes on Facebook. You have one of the best meme games of anyone I've ever encountered. So would you say that fun and play is like the main element or the main elements of how you approach fitness?

Courtney Marshall: Yes, because I believe when I started being a exercise teacher, I was a women's studies professor and I remember the adage of "No means no". And I really want to bring that into my classes. I did not want people to feel like I was pressuring them even though I am the one with the certification or I'm the one at the front of the room, I always want people to feel like their body belongs to them, and they get the ultimate say, and it is my job to help them move in a way that safe, in a way that makes sense for them. And so if they come and they say, I don't want to do jumping jacks, okay, well, let's let's find something else. But they shouldn't be made to feel bad about that. Whether it's because they feel they can't do it, or they just don't want to do it. And so I'm actually a really bad, anytime there's like a boot camp, I'm really bad at those because I'm not good at like yelling at people. And this is, again, one of those things that makes employment really tough because I can put together a HIIT workout, a Tabata workout, I can do that. But I'm not going to be that person yelling at you. I'm not going to be that person saying, "Well, you need to be here three times a week, or else you might as well just stay home. If not here at 6am. What's the point?> Right? I believe that fun means that people can change their minds about it. So if somebody comes to Zumba on Monday, and they decide, "You know what, I want to go to yoga on Tuesday, and I want to get on a bike on Wednesday. And maybe I'll go back to Zumba in six months." Like that's totally fine. Like, I don't feel that sense of people belonging to me and like they have to come to me. So I think that makes it fun. Because then I know that people have more of a choice, or they can choose to come back and not choose to come don't matter to me, I'll still be here hanging out.

Melissa Toler: Yeah, there's like flexibility instead of the obligation, which I think a lot of people think that that motivates them. And perhaps for people that is motivating. I just don't know if that is motivating in the long term, to be perfectly honest, because and I also think speaking from my own personal experience, the use of obligation as motivation, specifically around movement can take out the fun and can complicate your relationship with movement. And so I like the idea that we use had fun means that people can change their minds like I could have a schedule this week where I plan to lift weights on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, but then I get to those days and I decide I want to dance or do nothing instead. And I'm okay. Like I'm not beating myself up about that. I think that is that's not how we that's not how we operate usually within the fitness industry.

Courtney Marshall: Not at all. I've been teaching hour long Zumba classes. And I've taught aqua Zumba, which is a 45 minute class when I teach my low impact Zumba, but to 45 minute class, I did seated Zumba for half an hour class. So even thinking about not just the mode of the exercise, but the timing of the exercise. I think being at home has really challenged me because I fell into those that "Should I be doing something?"  at the beginning [of the COVID-19 pandemic]. And then I was like, No,  Courtney, you know what you do, and you know what you like. And I wound up, now I take Zumba class, I take a 7 am class with this woman, and the classes are out of Korea, but I get up at seven in the morning because it's so fun. And then I take a half hour class that's like part dancing. And then we'll do like some push ups in the middle at seven o'clock at night. And that's a class with this guy who's like my favorite merengue singer from Zumba. He just like has classes. So again, being at home has made me have to come face to face with, "what is that sense of obligation?" because nobody's gonna know if I exercise or not. So what, so what do I get out of and I found that there's so many benefits that I get out of it that have absolutely nothing to do with weight loss, but also don't have anything to do with making it a chore. 

Melissa Toler: Hmm, yes. Yeah.

Courtney Marshall: Having the obligation...

Melissa Toler: Yes. Yes. And you know, related to that. And I want to go back to your comment about this. Like you have to be serious about your exercise. That's the message that we get traditionally in fitness, in the fitness community. And I'd like it to talk about the attachment of eliteness and superiority and optimal health that gets attached to fitness and weight loss. And I think you had you started a really great conversation. I think it was last year after Beyonce's Netflix documentary came out. Do you recall that? 

Courtney Marshall: I recall her talking about the diet that she got on to get ready for Homecoming.

Melissa Toler: Homecoming! Yes, that's the name of the documentary and so there was a lot of chatter among Black people about, she pushed herself hard. And there was an attachment of like, what she was doing was this great thing because she's an elite performer, and she needed to do it. And so I think that was one of the uncomfortable moments for me in that documentary, because it continued to perpetuate that there was something special about going to an extreme to lose weight for a thing. And it's that's a hard thing to to unlearn. Right. It's a hard thing to just to think that maybe that wasn't even necessary. Like, I think the idea that it wasn't necessary for her to do that is foreign to a lot of people.

Courtney Marshall: Yes, Yes, it was. It was interesting moments. I remember writing that. And I had said it, because at the same time that people were talking about that moment, there was also a moment about like, "Wow, like, look, she has these like plus size dancers on her stage. And she's really celebrating all these different types of bodies and bigger bodies and things." And it made me think, and I guess I don't remember if I actually went and looked this up, but I feel like when I watched, maybe it was the return of four or something. But she'll talk about how she has to get back into shape to get back on the seat. And to me, and I think in the past, I was one of those people like, Well, you know, she's an athlete, and she has to do all this in order to perform. But then it made me wonder why put that in the video. If we know that she will be dancing a lot. And she you know, she will be getting a lot more exercise, so to speak. But why put that in there? Especially because, if I remember correctly, she said like she'd never do it again.

Melissa Toler: Yes, she did. Yep. She said she wouldn't do it again.

Courtney Marshall: So, you know, I guess it's that glorification of busy and exhausted. But it just seems to me like Beyonce, and our birthday is Friday, so I'm very excited about that. You know, Beyonce, who is the greatest living entertainer, she still was using that same language of getting her body back after having children. And it was just, I don't know...I don't want to say it was disappointing, because I think that she could feel however she wants to feel. But I remember even when I brought it up, people were immediately like, "Are you saying she doesn't love her body? Are you saying...?". And I was like, I'm not saying all that.  I'm just saying that I want to kind of talk more about that.

Melissa Toler: Yeah, I think that's an important thing for people to explore and question. And one of the reasons that I wanted to do this podcast and the reason I'm interviewing the people that I'm interviewing is to actually raise more questions than answers, because I don't think any of us have the answers. I think there are things that we need to question that we almost like automatically assume as truth and as the “right” way. And sometimes they're not.  Just like I just said, perhaps it wasn't even necessary for her to go through all of that. And I think that's a very, a lot of people who saw that documentary or who know of Beyonce would be like, well, maybe she did have to like, I think that's a difficult thing for people to even understand that perhaps that wasn't even necessary. Like, I think it's important for us to question some of these things that we just have accepted as truth and the attachment of eliteness and superiority to certain body types. And the work that it takes to get those body types is one of those things we should question.

Courtney Marshall: Right. Yeah, I think that's and that to do this hours of exercise and to the restrictive diet, again, as being a part of getting prepared for something is disciplining herself. It was it was an interesting moment, because even while she was doing saying all this, we were still talking about how she had these bigger, fat women dancers, so it's like, Okay, so how do we reconcile what she's saying about her own body versus the bodies that she's putting forward? And also being strong and artistic and discipline on her stage?

Melissa Toler: Yeah, and they were able to keep up with her, yes. They were doing the same dances that she was doing!

Courtney Marshall: So it was a moment where those of us who identify as fat, right, so I remember that conversation because it was like trying to have a conversation with fat Black women, and then all these other women were chiming in about it. And I was like, No, no, I want to keep it and I want to kind of figure this out...without y'all. Yeah.

Melissa Toler: So you know, I, in addition to the fun, I think that you know, that you bring to fitness. And it's one of the things that I love about following you. I also really like how you bring fitness and social justice together. And you've done that during our conversation where you brought up the role of money and lack of intergenerational wealth, specifically among Black folks. And then also access to things like pools for aquatic fitness. So I love that you bring those two together. And so you would think that people who are very social justice oriented would have a better understanding about fat phobia, and how harmful it is, however, I've seen, and I'm sure you have too, and I've seen in many "woke" spaces blatant fatphobia. Right? Like, it's like Black Lives Matter, except for fat Black Lives, which is disappointing to see. So I'm curious if you have encountered this, too, and then if so, how have you handled it? Or how would you handle it? If you haven't encountered it? 

Courtney Marshall: Ooooh. Well, I think and as far as fitness goes, I think I encounter it every time I see a fitness initiative, or an instructor or group that is putting together a group for say, Black women, right, and they say we want to bring exercise to our community. But to do that, they'll post statistics about obesity. Or they'll say, "Our community is suffering from high blood pressure, therefore, you should come and go do push ups with us in the park." And that, to me is when I feel that sense of Wow, like, I'm really happy that these people are centering this community. They're making things accessible, they might donate equipment or getting kids involved. But does it always have to come with fat being a symptom of some type of pathology. It even happened at a meeting I was recently at what they were the speaker was talking about racial trauma and the need to be trauma informed. But instead of it being about, okay, people do better. It was like, Black people are fat, because... So I just wonder how to break apart from that. And also how to let fat Black people speak in the moment. Because again, it's so often, and this is when I first started with fitness, I found that I was being talked at, I was never being talked to. No one's ever asking me "What do YOU need right now? How can I get it for you?". So, I would love to see spaces where fat Black people do get to lead and and know and really set the agenda. But to me it is disappointing. That fat can still be used as an insult, it can still be used alongside Black and poor and all the food shaming that comes along with it like that still, to me is it's very upsetting.

As someone who grew up fat, Black and poor. I'm not poor anymore. I'm still fat and Black. But I I feel that we... I think this is the thing. I don't I don't feel the love from the  instructor or the organizer towards those people.  I feel like it's the same bullying and name calling and belittling. And that's not liberation to me. Because fat Black women have moved mountains for me. So...

Melissa Toler: Yes. I love that. Yes. That's not liberation, right. It's the same paternalistic: "I know more than you, so I'm going to tell you what to do." Yeah, yeah. Right. So thank you. That is a great, that sounds like a really great place to bring the show to a close. And I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time today and sharing your experience and wisdom. I know our listeners will want to connect with you. So if you can just share what's the best way to connect with you on social media.

Courtney Marshall: Oh my gosh, I'm on Instagram @CourtMars. So Courtney Marshall was the first two syllables and my first and last name. And I also use Court Mars at gmail for my email address, so you can find cat videos, and Zumba stuff, and all my experiences of being an English teacher.

Melissa Toler: And all of that information will be in the show notes. So thank you again, Courtney. It's been a pleasure to have you.

Courtney Marshall: Bye. Great.

Melissa Toler: That was such a fun interview. I love Courtney's sense of humor and she has the greatest laugh. Now I want you to imagine, if all fitness professionals to Courtney's fun approach to physical movement, imagine what would be possible for both the clients and the instructors. In my opinion, this is what it looks like to honor people's full humanity and it's really a beautiful thing. So thank you for being here with me today. And if you enjoyed this episode, please let me know by rating, following, and reviewing wherever you listen to this podcast. Also, if you want to support the podcast to keep it going, please go to my website Melissa Toler com forward slash podcast, and click on the link to donate contributions as little as $1 are greatly appreciated and can go a long way. As always, I thank you for listening to hearing our own voice.