Transcript: Fat Girls in Black Bodies (Episode 2)

The following is a transcript of Fat Girls in Black Bodies with Dr. Joy Cox.

Melissa Toler: Welcome to Hearing Our Own Voice and anti diet weight inclusive podcast that centers Black stories and experiences. I'm Melissa Toler and today's episode with Dr. Joy Cox is the first of several incredible conversations that I'm going to have with black health and wellness professionals and fat activists about their journey to unlearn toxic messages about bodies, and how they're reclaiming health for themselves and their communities. Dr. Joy Cox is a body justice advocate who uses her skills in research and leadership to foster social change through the promotion of fat acceptance, diversity and inclusion. With 37 years living as a fat Black cis gender woman and seven plus years of professional experience under her belt, Dr. Cox's draws from her own experiences and academic skill set to amplify the voices of those most marginalized in society. She brings attention to matters of intersectionality addressing waist body size, accessibility and Health. Dr. Cox is the owner and operator of the fresh out the cocoon brand. She's a member of the advisory board for ASDAH and a supportive force behind the scenes for organizations looking to incorporate diversity and inclusion into their practices. Joy has been featured on several podcasts and media productions such as food psych, with Christy Harrison, now going up positivity pride with Gloria Lucas, fat women of color with Ivy Felicia, and Huffington Post piece, "Everything you know about obesity is wrong". She is also the author of the book, Fat Girls in Black Bodies, which is out and available now. She's the voice of an overcomer. She's looking to propel others into a place of freedom, designed by their own desires. Dr. Cox is a mover and a shaker undeterred by obstacles and fueled by hope. And trust me, you will hear all of those things. In my interview with her, we talked about her own experiences with fat phobia from family members as a little girl, and the journey to unlearn it. We also talked about the unrealistic beauty and health standards in our culture and the impact that it can have on black women. It is my absolute pleasure to share this conversation with you. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Melissa Toler: Hey, Joy, welcome to the show. So good to have you.

Joy Cox: Hi Melissa, thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here.

Melissa Toler: Yes. So I cannot wait to get into our conversation today. I know, you have a lot of good and juicy information and just your experience. And knowledge is going to be really, really valuable today. So I want to first start off by acknowledging your book, you've written a book. And so first of all, congratulations on that because that's a major, major huge accomplishment. It has an amazing title, which is fat girls and black bodies and the cover art is stunning. My pre ordered my copy and I cannot wait to get it. Yes. And before I read or before ask you this the first question, I want to read part of the blurb that describes your book, okay? To be a woman living in a body at the intersection of fat and black is to be on the margins from concern trolling: “I just want you to be healthy”, to outright attacks. That Black bodies that fall outside dominant constructs of beauty and wellness are subjected to healthism, racism, and misogynoir basis carved out by third wave feminism and the fat liberation movement fail at true inclusivity and intersectionality. Fat Black women need to create their own safe spaces and community instead of tirelessly laboring to educate and push back against dominant groups” , so there's a lot there and I think we'll touch on some of that today. So first, what inspired you to write the book fat girls and black bodies?

Joy Cox: So I did my dissertation from Rutgers. I actually had just finished up my dissertation in 2018 when I was contacted by North Atlantic books, inquiry whether or not I'd be interested in writing a book, and at the time I really to write the book was more of an opportunity to take the information that I had in my dissertation, and kind of put it in one place, as opposed to breaking it up into different articles. And then the more that I started to think about my own experiences, and after talking to North Atlantic books, and on hearing their interest in knowing what I was pulling from my own podcast, I started to think a bit larger about what the book could be common with, it could be outside of just research. And then from there, I say, these are our stories, they are worthy to be heard. And this gives us an opportunity to say something that we've always wanted to say, without being muzzled. And I said, Okay, well, let's share, right, let's really talk about fatphobia, and talk about racism and talk about our lived experiences in a way that not only exposes our vulnerability, but empowers us, as we join in community.

Melissa Toler: Mm hmm. That's beautiful. Until you mentioned being able to tell those stories without being muzzled. Can you talk a little bit about your experience with that, or maybe experience of other folks that you're aware of, with not being able to have the space to share those stories and be heard?

Joy Cox: Sure. So I mean, I think part of my experience in a Ph. D. program, I mean, I think I was explicitly told at one point, like, you don't want to be the Black scholar that studies Black stuff. And it kind of shaped your worldview, it has shaped your perception of what you can talk about and how you can talk about it. Also, to the degree or extent that people find this topic, particularly the topic of fat phobia worthy of interest, we live in such a fat phobic society. And weight stigma is everywhere. And so it's almost as though if you are raising your voice about something that you should already know what the rules are, so to speak. And so I think there are different ways that people's voices get muzzled, whether it be in the arena of academia as to what you can publish, right? The ideas like you're not supposed to be super subjective. And so I have to tell my story or a particular type of way, right, that shows a certain amount of vigor, right, my word isn't good enough. These are like anecdotes, right? How are you going to add to what we would define as research worthy, in academia. And so I was, I don't really want to share my story there. And then you think about more in the mainstream and how you get backlash for sharing your stories and those public spheres, right. And then there's the other part about how my book kind of does tackle this issue of like, fat phobia within the Black community. And then it's, it's that right? So people are like, why, why share this now? Why are you exposing this, right? Like, black lives matter? You're causing division, whatever it is, you know, and so just trying to find a platform where I could write and write freely, and I have ownership over what it is that I'm writing was important to me. And so didn't want to be muzzled in those ways.

Melissa Toler: Yeah. What I'm hearing is that the topics around fatness and Blackness, and the combination of those two things make folks uncomfortable, and they don't want to hear it, especially if it's something that goes against the traditional narrative that we're accustomed to hearing about those things.

Joy Cox: Yes

Melissa Toler: You use the word fat, which speaking of discomfort can make a lot of people uncomfortable, we are taught to use medicalized words like obesity and overweight, or words like curvy. So why do you choose to use the word fat?

Joy Cox : So I didn't always use the word fat, I think it's something that I've kind of grown into over time. And mostly, because if you really take away the negative connotations that have been written on the word itself, fat is just a descriptor of something. So I'm okay with saying that I have a fat body. I mean, I also say that I have a larger body. And I think there are certain when we start to think about language and the meaning of those things, there are so many different connotations that are attached to all these different words that we kind of call ourselves. So it's curvy, if it's voluptous, all of those things. It's just a way to just describe something without without additional meaning. And that's important to me, because I'm not asking anybody to see me in a particular way or a particular light. I'm just describing what my body is.

Melissa Toler: Yeah. So there's no judgment placed when using that word, right. There usually is. Yeah, right. Yeah. Thank you for that. And you mentioned part of your book, you talk about fat phobia in the Black community. Can you talk about some ways that you've seen that show up?

Joy Cox: Well, sure. I mean, I think that just growing up as a kid, I think I started wearing or was dressed in certain clothes very early around what I could show versus other kids who were smaller than me. And I think when you when you're kind of growing up in an environment, you don't think about it as much. But eventually I had the longer shorts I had the longer skirts I had the longer sleeves. The idea still, that was I was larger in size that I ate more than everybody else. Like that was still a thing, the ways in which our bodies are talked about, right. So ideally, within the, I shouldn't say ideally, but typically, within the Black community, like the Black community has its own standards as it relates to diet culture. And in my experience, there's a certain point where you'd kind of transition from being thick to being you're thinking you're desirable to being like fat in an off putting. And so you kind of run into what that means the idea that you should be able to cook, you know, the perpetuation of like that mammy stereotype, right, you're the one who takes care of everybody, your care comes second to everybody else's, oh, you're not desirable, you aren’t desirable sexually. But in the closet, there are so many different things that I think that happens within the Black community, as it relates to fat bodies and how they are others. It can really mess up your psyche, your self esteem as to how you see yourself and what you're willing to accept from other people as a result. And I think for me, that was just something that I experienced, I've been fat my whole life. So I experienced the form of fat phobia as a child through my adolescence, right. And then as I became an adult, like, one of the things people used to tell me all the time is like, all your legs is hanging out, I used to hate that, right? So older, older Black woman, “All your legs are out, or your legs are out”. And I'll be wearing something that everybody else is wearing, but what they're signaling is that, “You have too much leg to show” by, you know, and those things make them uncomfortable. And instead of dealing with their own discomfort, they put that on me. It was written as me doing something wrong when I was just existing. And so I mean, I think there were a lot of microaggressions and fat phobic things that happen within the community me growing up.

Melissa Toler: Yeah, you know, there's a perception that Black people and specifically Black women don't experience body image issues or troubles versus other members of the population. And that's just not true. Like, we're all still exposed to those harmful messages about what kind of body we should have. Right. And so those messages don't escape us. And as you've just illustrated, and I'm sure folks who are listening, can, can relate to I can also relate to those messages that come from within the community and even more specifically from within our family that emphasize those yet emphasize those harmful messages. So I think folks think that they're being subtle. But they're not, right, it's not just those “you're showing too much leg or that dress is not for you”, or like all of those phrases. And suppose it’s helpful pieces of information are really just subtle ways of emphasizing that your body is not the way it should be.

Joy Cox: Right, right. For sure. I mean, yeah, I had a, I had someone in my family tell me when I was, I forget how old I was, but I was younger. And they told me once that my legs look like tree trunks. And when I tell you that I was well into my 20s still looking in the mirror and only being able to see tree trunks. So it stopped me from living in a lot of ways. And if you were to go back and ask this person, they probably don't remember. You don't mean it was like, it's something that they said in passing that maybe they never thought that it would be something that you would carry with you. But when your body is constantly being critiqued, you don't easily forget those things. You don't forget them and they show up and you see them and even when you think that they're gone, they could resurface 10-15 years later and just a lot of a lot of work around that is something that I had to work at undoing from the things that I experienced within my own community.

Melissa Toler: Family. So yeah, so can you share a little bit about how you've done the work of unlearning?

Joy Cox: So I, so I think one of the benefits of where I am, is that I've been able to live alone. And I've lived alone by myself for, for forever, pretty much since about 2007, 2006. And, and so I've had the privilege of being able to sit in silence, just having that time to really dig deep and ask myself the questions, right. So you know, like your thighs, well, why don't you like your thighs? Well, who said this about your thighs? And for me, being able to sit with my own thoughts and unpack the lies the myths? Because there's a lot of stigma, once you internalize it, there's a lot of things, a lot of lies that you carry about yourself that aren't factual. And so just being able to sit with myself and unpack that I learned to make the mirror my friend. And I say that in the sense of like, there were days where I stood in front of the mirror and did not move, right. If I was butt naked, I was standing in front of the mirror, looking at myself, and normalizing what my body looked like. I realized that as the fear from standing in front of the mirror would go away, I was able to humanize my body, actually look at it and see it and say, “Oh, wait a minute, like, my hips look like everybody else's hips, or my arms look like everybody else's”. But I think for a long time, for me, the fear of not wanting to stand and actually look, allowed those missing those lies to remain loud, in my mind. And so it's like, you actually have to look at your legs to realize that they're not tree trunks, Joy. You know what I mean? Like, you are not actually walking around with tree trunks. And see, like, yeah, of course, you're not… everybody knows that. But making having a connection between those two things weren't, it wasn't easy for me to separate. And so it wasn't until I actually became comfortable with standing in a mirror that I said, “Oh, wait a minute, my legs look like everybody else's legs. Right?” Like you're tripping, stop carrying this idea around about yourself. And then of course, I like change the materials that I consumed. And so divesting from diet culture, excusing myself from conversations that include dieting and body image, and all of those things, and and really delving into literature around body acceptance, you know, finding community, all of those things have kind of helped me heal. But the hardest work I think, is the work when I sit with myself and say, Okay, let's really get down to what's in your heart. Right?

Melissa Toler: Hmm.

Joy Cox: So that those things are true to you, regardless of whether other people are saying that or not.

Melissa Toler: Yes, yeah, thank you for sharing that. The work of unlearning, folks is hard. And I think it's never ending, right? I think it's lifelong work, especially because we live in the culture that we live in, where we have constant reminders of what I like to call the body hierarchy. And if you are a certain size, gender, skin color, like you know that you are not at the top of that hierarchy. And so you can feel really great one day, and then something can come along and knock you a little bit off kilter. So thank you for sharing your story of unlearning. And we talked a little bit about body size, and the aesthetics of it, but I want to get into how we, as a culture conflate body size with health, right? Meaning that we get messages that there's a bigger body is an unhealthy body just like automatically, right? Like that's a, it's a linear association. And so when you add that to the over emphasis that our culture puts on achieving a certain level of health, and then how that level of health gets tied to our worth, as human beings, you can imagine that the conversation about what it means to be healthy and well can be a really unpleasant one for some people. So can you talk a little bit about healthism, and what that means and how that can be harmful to us?

Joy Cox: Sure. So the premise of healthism is rooted in ableism, really. And it posits that good health brings you success in every area of your life. And so if you think about the ways that people say "If you love yourself, then you attract like, good people", right? Like, that is a lie. And two, we really need to kind of unpack and think about what we're really telling people, right? So I love myself, I value myself and jerks still try me. Yeah, and I shouldn't internalize a jerk trying me because the jerk wanted to try me. And so healthism kind of situates itself the same way. It's like, well, if you're good in health, then these successes will come to your life, right? And one: health is a social construct, which I think a lot of people kind of miss. Right. So health is going to be super subjective, depending on who you talk to, and how they value health. And two: the, you know, the rules that are set or the guidelines that are set that the mainstream society often relays back to what health is, it's unrealistic, right? It's not based on my body, it's definitely not based on people who are part of my community, and what we weigh and what we're able to achieve, and all of these other things. And so you take a very Eurocentric, white centered standard, and you apply it to everybody, so much so to the point that even the Eurocentric, white-centered folks that you apply it to can't meet the standard. And so healthism that runs through our society becomes super toxic, because the standard is unrealistic. Everybody can't reach it, the people who probably do reach it either are genetically or naturally predisposed to it, or they are trying extremely hard to reach it and are putting their bodily health really, I mean, the well-being of who they are in danger. And so we kind of come up out of this space with these issues, right. So you have eating disorders, you have disordered eating, you have people who are pushing themselves to exhaustion as it relates to physical exercise, all because somebody told them that if you are a particular size, if you weigh a certain amount of weight, then you're better off in life, right? Or that you're more valuable in life, because healthism has an extreme attachment to how we value people. And then we see that kind of play out in society as it relates to social status. And so it's healthism that tells me that a smaller body makes me more successful. And then in society, what I see is that the people who are smaller bodied are having more success, right, then it makes it seem as though healthism is actually factual when it isn't, right? It really isn’t. It's a system by which we are operating under. It's like, what came first the chicken or the egg. But at the end of the day, we are deciding, we as a society, not we as in me and you, but people are deciding who gets in and who gets out. And then they're creating metrics and guidelines around that as a way to justify who they oust and who they keep in. Right? And so when we think about healthism, and we tie it to these other issues, like fat phobia, this is not anything that's new. Fat phobia was used as a way for the Protestant church to kick Black people out, to say that they didn't belong. And we see these things that happen, and it's just like a repurposing that keeps happening as it relates to these things. And if you have the masses that buy into it, obviously, it's going to be a whole lot easier for people to accept that, even if it does ultimately do them harm.

Melissa Toler: Yeah. And so thank you for that beautiful breakdown. I think, given what you just spoke about, you have to almost do an active divestment from that, because, like you said, you hear these myths and lies, but then you see how they're being played out and reinforced around you. So it seems true, right? You're told that it's true, and you see that it could be true. And when you get caught in that vortex, it really challenges your sense of self. And that is a terrible feeling. Because I think a lot of us have been there, where we're caught in between the messages and then actually seeing the messages play out like trying to get out of that can be hard, hard work, but it is possible. Okay. So I want to also talk a little bit about the phrase "personal responsibility", which is something that really drives me a little bonkers, especially when it's used in terms of weight or health. And for a number of years I've been writing about and talking about weight-inclusive health and body acceptance and all of those things and I've actually had a person say to me, "Well, you can't blame diet culture for everything. People need to take personal responsibility." And it's also a phrase that comes up a lot when people want to reprimand Black folks about health. You know, the narrative I'm sure you're familiar with, and the folks who are listening are familiar with. The narrative is usually that Black people have higher rates of all of these different diseases. And the reason that they cite is either an implied or it's explicit, is that a) there's something that's inherently defective with us, and b), we continue to make bad choices as a people and then c) a plus b. But that's not the whole story. So I want to ask you, what do you know, or do you think is missing from this narrative of personal responsibility?

Joy Cox: I don't, how can I say this? I mean, if the argument is going to be that people should take personal responsibility, then apply that across the board, okay. Apply that when it comes to government, apply that when it comes to policy, apply that when it comes to racism, because nobody's taking personal responsibility for those things. And I would argue that those things are a whole lot more detrimental and more so connected to health outcomes as it relates to Black people than anything else. And so what's missing, I think, is this talk that we know that everybody cuts out? Right, so what's missing is what's actually happening in our communities, as it relates to policy. What's missing is what's really happening in our communities as it relates to resources. What's missing is what's really happening in our communities that has been orchestrated, that is systemic, that is institutionalized as it relates to medical care, and all of those things. And I think before we ever get to the point of actually talking about what you ate, how much you ate, how far you walked, all of those things, if we're not going to deal with this other stuff, this heavier stuff that has a whole lot more bearing on the outcomes, the health outcomes of individuals, then we should all just pack our stuff and go home. Because at the end of the day, even if I am running track, even if I am running miles, even if only thing that I'm eating is kale and drinking water and polishing my face with aloe, if I go to the doctors to be treated, and racism is present there, I'm not going to get the care that I need. And my whole "whatever it is that we want to define as health", the insides of me, my whole little healthy body is going to deteriorate, and it's not deteriorating because of what I ate. It's not deteriorating because of how active I was or wasn't, it's deteriorating because I can't get the care that I'm supposed to get. And so if we are going to have this conversation, we need to have this conversation holistically. And we need to really understand and stop putting the onus on people because that's what stigma does, right? It like kicks the onus back on the person. "Oh, it's something you did. It's something you said", so that everybody else doesn't have to take responsibility, right? Because then the stigma in and of itself wouldn't exist. If we really were honest about how people, most people, get into situations that they're in, it's never just them. But then you can't stigmatize people that way, right? You can't mark them as "other" if there were other people involved, right? You're supposed to hold those other people accountable too, but because we live in a country that seems to have a very hard time with doing those things, and the push becomes that its people and his personal responsibility, which in a big picture that really makes up a very small percentage of you actually being able to change the trajectory as it relates to what society defines as health. What you eat, what how much you move your body as a small percentage, we're not even talking about genetics. We're not talking about environments. And we're not talking about environments in a critical way that makes us really look at the things that that happen, particularly in communities where Black and brown bodies are, that are kind of facilitated by government, by larger pieces of society that have more power than us and have more agency over space than we do. And if we're not going to talk about that, then, like I said, we should pack our bags and go home.

Melissa Toler: Yeah, thank you. And those systems have a very long history too. That's the other thing that doesn't get acknowledged. So I mean, we could have a whole series of conversations just about that. But yeah, so thank you for that because I agree that that's a critical piece that's almost always missing from any narrative. And you're right, if we're not talking about that the biggest driver of these factors, then what are we even doing? So thank you for for saying that. Now, what I love about your work is that you talk about ways that we can actually define and pursue health and wellness outside of these harmful white supremacist structures and paradigms. So, can you give the listeners a few ideas of how you've gone about that? And how other people may be able to pursue wellness as well?

Joy Cox: Yeah, so some of the things that I do is 1) I'm mindful, super mindful of what I watch and what I listen to. And so I have always enjoyed being physically active in different capacities, but I don't follow everybody's workout regimens. I don't, I kind of look at what it is that I can do, what is it that I feel comfortable doing. And then, I work towards those things. I kinda intuitively listen to my body as far as movement goes now, which was something that was extremely hard in the past, and you'd beat yourself up because you haven't been active enough in a week or something like that. And so dancing in the kitchen is like one of my favorite things. Like, while I'm also cooking dinner I'm two-stepping and I'm having a good time. So like, just tapping into that, like, I love to dance. And I think for me, one of the biggest things that I do now, I think is being honest with myself, I think when you are stigmatized, and you're constantly told what you can't do, you have like this point to prove, not just to everybody else, but also to yourself that you CAN do whatever it is like even if you don't want to do it. And I've gotten out of the habit of doing that. A few years ago, I did the Insanity workout thing cuz everyone was like: "Oh, you can do it if you're not at this certain fitness level". Whatever! Me and Sean T met regularly, and I finished that program and then you know, but now I think I've just gotten to a point of where you're just learning how to honor my body. And if my body says do not bend me that way, then I have no point to prove as it relates to that. And then just celebrating my own beauty celebrating my own face and my own features. I love my hips to pieces, and I don't say that lightly. It's something that I've had to grow with, because my shape is my hips have not abnormal but they're larger than, like larger than my waist larger than a lot of other parts of my body. And so kind of growing into the acceptance of what my body looks like has been something that I've kind of put on the radar for myself, and just really honoring my body for what it can do. And not chastising it for what it can't, has been my the big kind of a big thing for me. And by doing so, and celebrating myself, and then also celebrating other people, when you don't have that sense of competition, or that sense of comparison, it's a lot easier for you to open up and just do you. And so if that's running, jumping, skipping, singing, stretching, whatever, like I noticed that the more that I got to a place of where I was able to accept myself, the easier those things became.

Melissa Toler: Oh my god, yes, that makes sense, and that's beautiful. And I think that is a great place to bring the show to a close. Joy, I just want to say thank you so much for being here today and sharing your own personal story, but also the work you've done academically. I think what you have to say, both here on the podcast and definitely in your book is going to help a lot of people. So thank you so much for being here. And before we sign off, the folks out there listening will definitely want to connect with you. So can you tell them where they can find you on the internet?

Joy Cox: Sure. So on the internets you can find me at Fresh Out the Cocoon. So that's fresh out the cocoon.com, that's the website. I'm Fresh Out the Cocoon on Facebook, Fresh Out the Cocoon on Instagram. I'm not really active on Twitter, I'll be honest about that. But Instagram, you probably see me there more so than anything else, and hopefully everybody will get the book soon. We're gonna have a book release party that's actually scheduled for September 29th, which is the day that the book is released and that'll be an IG Live event. So look forward to to hearing announcements, about that, and also working on an app for inclusive fitness and identity, which is Jabbieapp.com. So you can go there if you want to learn more about that.

Melissa Toler: Thank you. You have a lot going on, and I can't we just hit all. So thank you, joy. I'll talk to you soon.

Joy Cox: Thank you.

Melissa Toler: That was Dr. Joy Cox sharing with us all of her wisdom. And you know, I just want to say how fortunate I feel to know people like Joy and to be able to have these kinds of deep conversations with folks like her. And I cannot wait to share the other interviews with you in upcoming episodes. And if you enjoyed this episode, please show us by rating following and reviewing wherever you listen to this podcast. Also, I would love for you to support this podcast to keep it going. And if you're able to do so please go to Melissa Toler dot com forward slash podcast and click on the link to donate. Contributions as little as $1 are greatly appreciated and can go a long way. Again, I am Melissa Toler, and I want to thank you for listening to Hearing Our Own Voice.